In episode 101 our guest is Anne de Graaf, Corporate Affairs Director at Heineken Cambodia, drawing from her 15 years of experience across finance, diplomacy, and leadership. Anne shares her reflections on the role of trust in international business, the importance of relationships, cultural nuances, and her strategic approach to leadership.
Anne’s journey began with her curiosity about the world and how complex systems, such as finance, shape personal and global dynamics. She speaks about her early career, including her time at the Dutch financial regulator (AFM) following the 2008 Lehman crisis, and how it led her to a leadership role in Heineken. Anne notes that her background in diplomacy and international institutions has provided her with valuable perspectives, particularly in framing corporate strategies that align with broader economic goals. This ability to wear “multiple hats” — employer, investor, manufacturer — is key to engaging successfully with stakeholders across cultures.
A central theme of the interview is the idea that trust is not a transaction, but a long-term, complex, and personal process. Trust, according to Anne, is not built through simple exchanges but through deeper connections that require time and sensitivity to the other person’s context. She emphasizes that trust is intangible and relational, and because of this, it can be difficult to repair once broken.
Another important aspect Anne discusses is the role of body language in trust-building, particularly in cross-cultural settings like Cambodia, where non-verbal cues are critical to showing respect and understanding. She reflects on how learning to be more intentional with body language has impacted the quality of her relationships and interactions at work.
Anne also shares her experiences navigating unfamiliar environments, contrasting her time in Cambodia and Brussels. She discovered that working in a place so different from her home country, like Cambodia, actually helped her become more open to new experiences and trust her intuition more effectively. In negotiations, especially at the De Witt Institute for Advanced Negotiations, Anne highlights the significance of focusing on the willingness to understand the other party rather than just seeking agreement.
The conversation touches on authenticity as well. Anne describes how being authentic involves vulnerability and a willingness to admit when things are uncertain, which helps build stronger, trust-based relationships within her team.
(…) I sometimes struggle with it because authenticity comes also with vulnerability, and it comes with showing when you agree, when you don’t agree, but also when you are at ease or when you’re not at ease. And also, I think especially as a leader as well, showing when you don’t know. And I think that is not something that we sometimes are taught to do or what maybe in the past maybe strong leaders would always do, but I truly believe that that gives that human touch to it, that will help teams to run faster because they build a relationship for you.
Towards the end of the interview, Anne beautifully compares trust to music, emphasizing the importance of pauses and reflection in building trust, much like how silence is essential in creating meaningful music. She also shares her thoughts on how cultural differences, particularly in pace and communication styles, shape trust-building in her leadership role in Cambodia.
(…) I sometimes have to ground myself and go back to something that is not rational to help me see things from a different end. So then music helps. So why pauses? I always remember I cannot really say the exact proverb, but there is this saying that it’s also the pauses that make the music. Is not only the tone, but it’s also the pauses make are such that you can actually listen to it, you can actually absorb it. Pace is important for all humans. If we only go action, action, action, we can’t keep up, it’s not sustainable